Instability and wobble

[bobberwi]

Hi Guys,

I just got back to WI from AVA Rally in Bowling Green, KY. It was my first rally and also my first extended road trip for my "recently resurrected" '92 Voyager. A couple of serious handling problems did seem to present themselves with my Voyager.

I would experience a definite sense of instability at highway speeds (especially >65 mph interstate speeds). The bike feels "shifty"...almost free-floating with any quaterering wind and more seriously, at times would spontaneously start a progressive "wobble" that could be corrected by dramitic slow down and slower travel speeds. These handling characteristics were present pulling a small trailer and without the trailer.

It was reccommended that I install new progressive fork springs (ordered from Carl Leo) and some other Voyager owners suggested I replace/upgrade the front fork brace with a "Superbrace". I am on a pretty tight and fixed income so I can not readily afford a $130.00 "maybe helpful" Superbrace. Does anyone have a used one they want to part with for a modest price? Any experience as to it's value for riding stability would be most welcomed too.

Thanks bunches,

Bob Michaels
Madison, WI
bobberwi53704@yahoo.com

[WhiskeyDoc]

Bob, What kind of tires are you runnning? When I first bought my 96 XII I replaced the old worn out tires with the OEM Dunlop 404's. What a mistake that turned out to be! The bike handled just as you describe. It never felt solid and I was uncomfortable all 9,000 miles I used them! Thank goodness they didn't last any longer so I could justify replacing them. I went with Meztler 880's. I now have 11K miles on them and they are terrific with plenty of tread left, maybe another 8 to 9k miles. Avon Venoms are also excellent tires, Dunlop Elite III (I won't use another Dunlop product, but some of the guys love 'em.

I have never used a super brace, so I can't pass judgment. I have heard both good and bad about them here and on other forums. Check your head nut torque and tires before you go the super brace route. My $.02.

[bikerking.biz]

First, check out this post about front end shimmy:
http://www.amervoyassoc.org/forum/viewt ... ?f=4&t=698
Then, as WiskeyDoc has suggested, check out your front tires, if they are worn or one of the crappy stock tires, replace them and make sure they are inflated properly. I'm guessing most of your problems lie in the areas covered by above post and maybe a tire problem. This cures most of the wobble problem some have. The superbrace however, does help with flex caused wobble, which some may not notice depending on how hard you ride or the way you ride. I like my superbrace, and wouldn't be without one.

[David (N. Alabama)]

Hey Bob, My bike did not feel comfortable at highway speeds until I upgraded the suspension. I had already put ME880s on the bike which helped in the curves but not at highway speeds. I would think that the superbrace would provide more benefit when transitioning from one curve to another, than going down the superslab.

I suggest trying one thing at a time and see how it goes.

Tire condition and proper air pressure.
Steering head bolt tightened to spec.
Rebuild front forks
Replace rear springs
Superbrace

[bobberwi]

Hi Guys,

Thanks to you all for your thoughtful comments. Here is a bit more info on my bike:

The tires (front and rear) are new Dunlap Elitte IIIs, I was running 36 psi front, 40 psi rear with rear shock setting on #4. I had 9 psi in front air shocks and 38 psi in rear shocks. I was seeing no cupping in old tires prior to replacement. The new Dunlap Elittes were also balanced when installed.

I will have the head bolt torque checked at dealer. Carl Leo did advise I replace front fork springs with a new set of progressives springs. I am hoping enough improvement can be achieved so my planned trip to MT on 24th can still be done.

It just seems that a bike like the Voyager should feel stable and solid at interstate cruising speeds. Right now, speeds approaching 60 mph are not experienced as stable and secure on my bike ("92 Voyager)

bobberwi

[Bonsi]

Here is my 2 cents. I have a 96, with 21000, all stock shocks, 10lbs in front, 38 in back, new Venoms at 36 front 40 rear, with no super brace. It is a very stable ride. The slight wobble and fork flex I get when turning at slow speeds, never at highway speed.
I guess my question is if all these modifications will help? Why is it that my ride is riding smooth with out any mods?
I came into a sharp 20 mile corner going to Hells Canyon to see Duane, Charlotte and team. Was leaned hard on the front and back brake, pushed it hard into the turn and did some tank slapping until I let off on the front brake. That was scary but learned and lived through it!
That was the day I drove 254 miles and still did not run out of Gas! Good luck with you adjustments to the current hardware. Bonsi

[Rhinestone Kawboy]

I came into a sharp 20 mile corner going to Hells Canyon to see Duane, Charlotte and team. Was leaned hard on the front and back brake, pushed it hard into the turn and did some tank slapping until I let off on the front brake. That was scary but learned and lived through it! Bonsi

That does not indicate smooth riding to me, I think you will find that your tank slapping episode while on the brakes hard can indicate front fork flexing, and this is something that the SuperBrace will help with quite a bit. The fork flex and slight wobble while turning at slow speeds also should be reduced if not eliminated with the SuperBrace. I also feel that the SuperBrace helps with front brake feel and performance since the forks don't flex like they do with the stock brace.

[Mike in IL]

If you go into a curve correctly, you won't have any need to " Lean hard on the front and rear brakes" You should have your speed adjusted for the curve before you enter it. Now, if something jumps out in front of you, yes, then you will have to straighten up the bike, and get on brakes as needed perhaps. Getting hard on the front brake, in a curve, leaned over, is a good way to fall over. Many sport bike riders will "Trail the rear brake" to bleed off speed in a curve. Thats light pressure on the rear brake, light pressure, not hard on it. I've seen many motorcycle riders drop their motorcycle while riding slow, very slow, and applying the front brake while turning the front tire. At that very slow speed, it's easy, too easy to lock up that front tire, and while turned, down to the ground they go.
I see many motorcycle riders that I call "Straight Line Riders." Oh, they can make the bike go really fast, in a straight line. Put a long tight curve, like entering an Interstate here, and man, they just can't handle it. Usually it's the Harley Riders I see doing it where I'm at. 70mph+ down the Interstate, going into a curve on a ramp for entering or leaving the Interstate, and it's 25mph, all over the curve. When coming out of the curve, you can then hear them getting on it. Straight line riders----------------- Zoooomm as they pass, until the next curve that is. Now, this isn't everybody, just some, and it's just what I've seen and noticed over the years. My riding skills are off right now. I haven't been out practicing or riding. Riding is a skill, and as such, like playing the guitar, or piano, you must practice, and practice correctly in order to get better. Something else to practice:: Have a friend help you lay your Voyager softly on it's side. Better yet, lay an old bike on it's side, then practice correctly the way to get it back upright safely. Here's a thought, contact Ride Like A Pro, get their latest CD of Motorcycle Handling and Riding, or any of their other Motorcycle CD's. Watch it with a friend, then go out and practice what Jerry instructs. It's fun, and will make you feel more comfortable with your motorcycle, whatever it is.
Folks, have a good week, I'm going on vacation for 7-9 days. See-Ya,,,

[Charlie from Illinois]

here is what I got from Avon regarding their tire pressures. I run 38 on the front and 48 on the rear. The max is 40 for my front tire and 50 for the rear.

General Tire Pressure Guidelines – Avon Tyres


Based on a 170 rider with no luggage
For 2 up or bigger loads increase accordingly

Venom Tires with reinforced construction (130/90HB-16 – 140/90HB-16, etc.)
Solo 2 up light 2 up loaded
Front 38-40 40-41 42-43
Rear 44 46 48-50

Other Models – Venom (not reinforced or radial), Roadrunner, Roadrider, etc.
Solo 2 up light 2 up heavy
Front 34-38 40-42 42
Rear 38-40 40-42 42

General Size/Pressure Chart

Front Solo 2 up light 2 up heavy
80/90-3.25 32-34 32-34 34-36
100/80-3.50 32-34 34-35 35-36
110/70-120/90 34-36 36-38 36-38
130/60-150/80 34-36 36-38 38-40

Rear Solo 2 up light 2 up heavy
4.00-100/90 34-36 36-38 38-40
4.25-110/90 34-36 36-38 38-40
120/80-130/90 36-38 38-40 40-42
140/70-190/50 36-38 38-40 40-42
140/90-200/50 38-40 40-42 40-42



Note: This is a wide range recommendation for average conditions only. High speed riding or high road temperatures may require a moderate increase in pressure, not to exceed the indicated maximum cold pressure on the sidewall. Contact Avon directly for exact pressure recommendations for your riding conditions. These are general guidelines only.



Avon Tyres Customer Service
6911 216th St. S.W. Lynnwood, WA 98036
Toll Free 1-800-624-7470 Fax 1-425-771-4246

[Bonsi]

Thanks for the feed back from my tank slapping. Yes Ideal is adjust your speed and make a smooth transition through the curve! I did say I learned a lesson. It was my second trip after 23 years off the street. But that Super Brace? I am sure that would make a difference in the flex. Turning in parking lots etc. I get alot of flexing. However the wobble at high speeds is a mystery to me. My bike seems stable at those speeds. I guess it is a fine line between tuned and just off at some point. Super Brace, Progressive Springs, Tires, Pressure tires and shocks and Steering stem? Did I leave anything out. Oh! Responsible drive practices! Right.
Bonsi

[Rhinestone Kawboy]

There are several things other that some mentioned that can also cause you problems.

• *Low tire pressure
  *worn wheel bearings
  *worn swing arm bushings
  *absence of front or rear shock dampening caused by low shock oil--bounce up and down on your seat to test rear shocks, does it keep bouncing a few times after you stop? If so, your rear shocks either need new oil at proper level, or new shocks if they leak. Stock Voyager shocks cannot be rebuilt, only oil changed.
  *Improper suspension air pressure setting.

Although a Voyager or any large touring bike will never handle like a sportbike, with everything in proper condition and adjustment, they don't do bad at all.

[Don Smith]

I still think the N0.1 reason for the wobble is the stering head bearings not being adjusted properly. The flex will still be there ,superbrace or not. The progressive springs will benefit the ride some and do away with air pressure in the front. At least this was my experience on my 95. Tires were never a problem. The Elite 2's and three's worked fine. Paladin

[bobberwi]

Hi Don,

Thanks for the reply. I don't know how to properly adjust steering head bearing so I'll have to do a dealer and hope they know how to adjust them. Your opinion dove-tails very closely to that of Carl Leo...good and wise company indeed! 8-)

thanks again,
bobberwi

[Charlie from Illinois]

Try this Bobberwi before you take it to a dealer. You can surely do this after all the work you've done on your bike already.
http://www.abbikeboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=209

[Bonsi]

My mechanic looked at my 96 because it would, when starting out from a stop, wander back and forth until speed was up over 20mph. He said the steering head was to tight. That I should back it off a quarter turn or so.

The adjustment instruction was to have the center stand ingaged and loosen the stem nut until the front wheel would loosely fall to the left or the right. Not have it so tight that it would stay in the middle or if turned slightly it would not continue to swing over to full turn. He said you can get to the stem nut from the top, down by the ignition switch, and with al long screwdriver tap the adjustment nut to loosen or tighten.

I have not adjusted it yet in fear that loosening it would cause a worse condition then the wander. It is really smooth right now on the highway.

Not much help, but glad to be apart of the discussion! Bonsi

[Rhinestone Kawboy]

You can also get additional information about the SuperBrace and order online if you wish. Just go to the AVA merchandise page and look for the SuperBrace about half way down or so on the page. There are two information links there to click on.

[bobberwi]

Hi All,

Thank you all so much for your wonderful advice, suggestions, and caring help. It is this kind of amazing and generous assistance that has enabled me to have a working Voyager and meet so many great people. Y'all are the best!

I'll be installing the progressive fork springs when they arrive later this week and try tweaking the steering bearings at that time. I am always truly humbled by the willingness and encouragement of AVA/Voyager owners whereever I meet them. Y'all {we} are truly a an "awesome family" and I am proud to be a new bonafide card carrying AVA member (the check really was in the mail Duane <smile>).

A special thank you to Chris for lending me his "fork instalation tool", Carl (of course) for his timely parts shipping and wisdom, Bill for the "how to..." instructions/encouragement from his website,... and so many others. I'll let y'all know how the Montana trip flows when i get back.

bob(berwi)