15,000mile/2year service question

[TheAudiDoc]

I just took the 1700 in for the 15k/2year service and got a huge shock when my dealer told me 4 hours of labor just to lube the steering and trailing arm bearings i looked in the manual and it stated you have to basically have to take the entire bike apart to do these maintenance items....faring (inner and outer)complete removal.....bags trunk fender tire to get out the swing arm to service it......anyone found a shortcut???? install a grease zert somewhere???? I'm a mechanic and i don't think i really want to tackle this my self.....I don't know how many 1700s are out there with 15k on em.....please chime in....David....you are close.....GV550 Garry..how bout you??

[raw6464]

Lubricating the stem & swingarm bearings cost almost as much as replacing them... wait till they fail (not likely any time soon) and you'll save a lot of money.

[David (N. Alabama)]

If they were lubed correctly to begin with and the bike doesn't do a lot of sitting or riding in very dusty or constant rainy situations you should be good for a long time. Unfortunately, there is the "if" statement.

I may tear mine down after the national rally since it will be too hot to ride the Voyager much until my September trip. If I find the time to do it I will let you know what I find. There is that 'if' word again.

I do have to agree with Raw that if you have to pay the dealer to do this you might as well wait until you start to notice something strange going on. That is 'if' you notice before a failure occurs. The current president of the Vulcan Riders Association had a race crack in his steering head and he almost went down because the steering bound up for a moment. Good thing he is a strong guy and didn't go down.

If you do decide to have the service done find out how much it would cost to put new bearings and races in and go with a tapered roller bearing.

[Voyager]

Lubricating the stem & swingarm bearings cost almost as much as replacing them... wait till they fail (not likely any time soon) and you'll save a lot of money.

I can understand the sentiment and with the swing arm bearings I see now harm in riding them to failure. However, if your steering stem bearings fail by seizing, you will have a very bad day indeed. The trip to the ER will cost FAR more than 4 hours shop time at your local Kaw dealer.

I lubed and adjusted the stem bearings on my XII and I can't believe the VV is any worse to get at than is the XII.

[raw6464]

Lubricating the stem & swingarm bearings cost almost as much as replacing them... wait till they fail (not likely any time soon) and you'll save a lot of money.

I can understand the sentiment and with the swing arm bearings I see now harm in riding them to failure. However, if your steering stem bearings fail by seizing, you will have a very bad day indeed. The trip to the ER will cost FAR more than 4 hours shop time at your local Kaw dealer.

I lubed and adjusted the stem bearings on my XII and I can't believe the VV is any worse to get at than is the XII.

Stem bearings don't just seize over night and without some sort of indication for a LONG time. These bearing are not subject to the stress that high speed spinning wheel bearings have too endure. Mechanical failure due to a manufacturing defect not withstanding, I don't see bearings seizing out of the blue. In 50 years of riding I have never heard or read where stem bearings seized period... and/or caused a catastrophic accident... it just doesn't happen.

What does happen is the balls in the bearings wear seats in the race over time... even when well lubed. This causes the front end to wobble as the balls roll in and out of the seats. This phenomenon happens a lot with ball bearings on heavy bikes because of the very little bearing surface where the balls make contact with the race, where as roller bearings offer larger bearing surface and mitigates wearing out seats in the race. The manufactures should not be using ball bearings... but they're cheaper. So when replacing the stem bearing you should use roller bearings. I had to do this to my Wing because of front end wobble.

The sheer probability of bearings seizing and causing a catastrophic accident is astronomical. There is just no justifiable reason to spend $350 - $400 to have the ball bearing re-greased. If it was me going to pay somebody to take the front end apart, replace the bearings with rollers... all that work to just lube the flawed ball bearings does not make any sense.

If there was even a remote possibility of bearing seizing because of lubrication the manufacturers would put the grease fittings back on the bikes like they used to... just from a liability perspective.

[TheAudiDoc]

from what i have read/seen on another forum...the lower steering bearing is the one that may rust up and need service.....there may be a grease fitting in the steering soon....at least to lube the lower brearing....I haven't heard about issues with the trailing arm breaings yet

[raw6464]

from what i have read/seen on another forum...the lower steering bearing is the one that may rust up and need service.....there may be a grease fitting in the steering soon....at least to lube the lower brearing....I haven't heard about issues with the trailing arm breaings yet

Be very careful drilling and tapping the stem... you don't want metal shavings falling into the bearings your trying to lube. The best time to do it when your going to replace the bearings. For what it's worth you may think twice about putting grease fittings in the stem and swing arm. Pumping grease into the fittings under pressure can blow seals doing more harm than good... especially doing it blind. And there is no guarantee the lube is going exactly where it does some good.

You also need to consider your warranty... installing zert fittings would be a great reason for Kawasaki denying you warranty service on the stem and swingarm. BTW Honda replaced my stem bearings under warranty and also paid for the Timken roller bearings... if I installed zerts fitting... who knows?

Perhaps I was wrong on my last post about factory zert fittings... maybe manufacturers stopped providing zert fittings because they blew seals and didn't do anything beneficial... maybe?

IMHO don't do anything until you need to replace bearings. You have 15K miles on the bike you should be good for many miles before that's happens... if it ever does.

Speaking of "blowing seals"... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UO9A4p1Qsvk

[Voyager]

Lubricating the stem & swingarm bearings cost almost as much as replacing them... wait till they fail (not likely any time soon) and you'll save a lot of money.

I can understand the sentiment and with the swing arm bearings I see now harm in riding them to failure. However, if your steering stem bearings fail by seizing, you will have a very bad day indeed. The trip to the ER will cost FAR more than 4 hours shop time at your local Kaw dealer.

I lubed and adjusted the stem bearings on my XII and I can't believe the VV is any worse to get at than is the XII.

Stem bearings don't just seize over night and without some sort of indication for a LONG time. These bearing are not subject to the stress that high speed spinning wheel bearings have too endure. Mechanical failure due to a manufacturing defect not withstanding, I don't see bearings seizing out of the blue. In 50 years of riding I have never heard or read where stem bearings seized period... and/or caused a catastrophic accident... it just doesn't happen.

What does happen is the balls in the bearings wear seats in the race over time... even when well lubed. This causes the front end to wobble as the balls roll in and out of the seats. This phenomenon happens a lot with ball bearings on heavy bikes because of the very little bearing surface where the balls make contact with the race, where as roller bearings offer larger bearing surface and mitigates wearing out seats in the race. The manufactures should not be using ball bearings... but they're cheaper. So when replacing the stem bearing you should use roller bearings. I had to do this to my Wing because of front end wobble.

The sheer probability of bearings seizing and causing a catastrophic accident is astronomical. There is just no justifiable reason to spend $350 - $400 to have the ball bearing re-greased. If it was me going to pay somebody to take the front end apart, replace the bearings with rollers... all that work to just lube the flawed ball bearings does not make any sense.

If there was even a remote possibility of bearing seizing because of lubrication the manufacturers would put the grease fittings back on the bikes like they used to... just from a liability perspective.

And the Titanic is unsinkable.

I agree that wear is an unlikely failure mode for steering stem bearings, but rust is a likely failure mode. And a rusted set of ball or roller bearings can seize very suddenly when rotated as the bearings tend not to rust uniformly as they are touching the races at two points/lines. They tend to rust to an oval shape which can then bind pretty tightly when the bearing is rotated.

I haven't see this on a motorcycle, but I have seen it on bicycles and lawnmowers. You give the bars are turn far enough and they lock in position.

One can argue that the maintenance interval is shorter than it needs to be and that is a good argument. I believe that arguing for no maintenance at all and waiting for complete failure is a risky proposition. But, it is your neck and you get to make the choice. I just hope you aren't steering my way when your fork locks.

[gv550]

I have lubed my steering bearings and swingarm bearings 3 times, did the work myself.
For the steering, no fairing parts need to be removed. I combined the job with removing, draining, flushing the forks so they were already off but I think you could drop the steering stem with the fork tubes in place. I did need to have the OD of my 36mm socket turned down to loosen and re-torque the top nut but everything else went easy. Remove the handlebars and lay them on a blanket over the tank, remove the top triple clamp, remove the top nut and the lower bearing drops down enough to lube it and top bearing can be removed. After the fork tubes are off, the bearing lube takes maybe an hour.
For the swingarm lube, you don't need to remove the trunk or rear wheel, but the whole exhaust system needs to come off just to get to the swingarm nut. Loosen the rear axle and slide the wheel all the way forward, slide the belt off the pulley, remove the swingarm shaft and the whole swingarm/wheel/brake/pulley will slide back far enough inside the fender to access the bearings. I did need to remove the rear caliper and ABS sensor because the hose and wire is not long enough to reach when the wheel is that far back. I think I could do that job (now that I'm experienced) in about 2 hours.

Garry

[raw6464]

And the Titanic is unsinkable.

But, it is your neck and you get to make the choice. I just hope you aren't steering my way when your fork locks.

One more time, I have NEVER heard, read, or dreamed of stem bearing seized without a warning a squeak or wobble and causes the accident you propose... IT JUST DOESN'T HAPPEN.

I don't buy into your hypothesis of bearings getting so bone dry they rust and seize so tight the handle bars won't turn in a sudden manor without any prior indication. Claiming stem bearing lube is a safety issue with a sudden accident is an unfounded scare tactic that does not hold water with historical facts... it just doesn't happen.

Yes I will wait till I get some sort of indication the bearings need replacement rather then spend $400 based on reasons that don't exist.

I'm done with this thread... if you want to lube your bearings... knock yourself out. And BTW the ONLY time you actually turn the handlebars is in slow under 10MPH turning.

[David (N. Alabama)]

I have lubed my steering bearings and swingarm bearings 3 times, did the work myself.
For the steering, no fairing parts need to be removed. I combined the job with removing, draining, flushing the forks so they were already off but I think you could drop the steering stem with the fork tubes in place. I did need to have the OD of my 36mm socket turned down to loosen and re-torque the top nut but everything else went easy. Remove the handlebars and lay them on a blanket over the tank, remove the top triple clamp, remove the top nut and the lower bearing drops down enough to lube it and top bearing can be removed. After the fork tubes are off, the bearing lube takes maybe an hour.
For the swingarm lube, you don't need to remove the trunk or rear wheel, but the whole exhaust system needs to come off just to get to the swingarm nut. Loosen the rear axle and slide the wheel all the way forward, slide the belt off the pulley, remove the swingarm shaft and the whole swingarm/wheel/brake/pulley will slide back far enough inside the fender to access the bearings. I did need to remove the rear caliper and ABS sensor because the hose and wire is not long enough to reach when the wheel is that far back. I think I could do that job (now that I'm experienced) in about 2 hours.

Garry

Thank you for the post Garry. I always look forward to your reports since you have more miles on the Voyager than anyone I have read about. Does Kawasaki talk to you on a quarterly basis? if not, they should.

[TheAudiDoc]

Thank you all for your input and Garry you make it sound pretty easy compaired to the instructions in the manual....I may just tackle this next weekend.

[Voyager]

And the Titanic is unsinkable.

But, it is your neck and you get to make the choice. I just hope you aren't steering my way when your fork locks.

One more time, I have NEVER heard, read, or dreamed of stem bearing seized without a warning a squeak or wobble and causes the accident you propose... IT JUST DOESN'T HAPPEN.

I don't buy into your hypothesis of bearings getting so bone dry they rust and seize so tight the handle bars won't turn in a sudden manor without any prior indication. Claiming stem bearing lube is a safety issue with a sudden accident is an unfounded scare tactic that does not hold water with historical facts... it just doesn't happen.

Yes I will wait till I get some sort of indication the bearings need replacement rather then spend $400 based on reasons that don't exist.

I'm done with this thread... if you want to lube your bearings... knock yourself out. And BTW the ONLY time you actually turn the handlebars is in slow under 10MPH turning.

I love people who are so adamant that a given thing simply can't happen. Pride goeth before the fall as they say.

And your last statement is absolutely, completely false. You turn the handlebars ALL the time while riding. Nearly every turn is entered with a counter steer and that requires moving the handlebars. And you constantly make minor turns of the bars to keep the bike tracking where you want it to track. What a hilarious statement.

[raw6464]

And the Titanic is unsinkable.

But, it is your neck and you get to make the choice. I just hope you aren't steering my way when your fork locks.

One more time, I have NEVER heard, read, or dreamed of stem bearing seized without a warning a squeak or wobble and causes the accident you propose... IT JUST DOESN'T HAPPEN.

I don't buy into your hypothesis of bearings getting so bone dry they rust and seize so tight the handle bars won't turn in a sudden manor without any prior indication. Claiming stem bearing lube is a safety issue with a sudden accident is an unfounded scare tactic that does not hold water with historical facts... it just doesn't happen.

Yes I will wait till I get some sort of indication the bearings need replacement rather then spend $400 based on reasons that don't exist.

I'm done with this thread... if you want to lube your bearings... knock yourself out. And BTW the ONLY time you actually turn the handlebars is in slow under 10MPH turning.

I love people who are so adamant that a given thing simply can't happen. Pride goeth before the fall as they say.

And your last statement is absolutely, completely false. You turn the handlebars ALL the time while riding. Nearly every turn is entered with a counter steer and that requires moving the handlebars. And you constantly make minor turns of the bars to keep the bike tracking where you want it to track. What a hilarious statement.

Counter steering and turning the handle bars are two different methods. Counter steering is pushing or pulling the bars in the opposite direction you want to go which makes the bike lean and it's the lean and NOT the turning of handle bars that makes the bike turn. THAT'S WHY IT'S CALL COUNTER STEER. Counter steering can also be applied with just weight shift WITHOUT any turning of handle bars. Also at speed gyroscopic affect PREVENTS any significant turning of handle bars that would create the catastrophe seize you claim. At walking speed you turn the handle bars in the direction you want to go. And stop with the personal comments... this thread could get very ugly if you continue. You might want to bone up on counter steering http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering

[TheAudiDoc]

Can't we all just get along with each other Thanks again for your input.....keep my thread civil please

[Voyager]

[quote="raw6464]
Counter steering and turning the handle bars are two different methods. Counter steering is pushing or pulling the bars in the opposite direction you want to go which makes the bike lean and it's the lean and NOT the turning of handle bars that makes the bike turn. THAT'S WHY IT'S CALL COUNTER STEER. Counter steering can also be applied with just weight shift WITHOUT any turning of handle bars. Also at speed gyroscopic affect PREVENTS any significant turning of handle bars that would create the catastrophe seize you claim. At walking speed you turn the handle bars in the direction you want to go. And stop with the personal comments... this thread could get very ugly if you continue. You might want to bone up on counter steering http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering[/quote]

Counter steering requires that you turn the handlebars. That is what "steer" means in this context. It means to use motion of the handlebars to cause a change in direction of the motorcycle. The counter simply means that to initiate the turn you steer the bike away from the desired direction initially (by turning the handle bars) and then you steer into the turn (normal steering - also done by turning the handle bars) to maintain the desired angle of lean and thus the desired rate of turn. Since many turns are not constant radius, you also are constantly steering into or out of the turn to adjust the lean angle and thus rate of turn.

Similarly, when riding in a straight line, you are constantly steering (again by turning the handle bars) to overcome disturbances such as wind gusts, changes in slope of the road surface, etc., to keep the bike on track. If you placed a rotational sensor on your steering stem you and logged the angular changes of the stem (and thus handle bars), you would see that the stem is virtually never still and is constantly rotating, albeit by very small amounts when at high speeds and traveling straight, but the motion is definitely always there.

I am quite familiar with the physics of counter steering. I suggest you read some of Tony Foale's books/articles. Here is a quick introduction: http://www.tonyfoale.com/Articles/Balance/BALANCE.htm

And if you still don't believe that the handle bars are constantly being turned left and right (that is STEERED), even when riding in a straight line, you may want to sign up for Keith Code's course and take a ride on the "No BS" bike. http://www.vf750fd.com/blurbs/countercode.html

This video shows it pretty well also. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLzB5ori ... re=related

[Turbo4x4]

Folks, I need some help.

I have developed a severe front end wobble at approx 40 MPH. I am running a new Dunlop E3, which replaced the stock Stone. I have tried every tire pressure between 25 PSI and 40 PSI, in 2 PSI increments with no change. I have verified correct steering stem torque, mic'ed the rotors and rim, and all are perfect. I have perfect balance on the front tire, and have verified alignment of the front tire with the rear via a run across a rolled paper track on a paved driveway. I have verified that all fork mounting bolts are correctly torqued, the triple tree is tight, and then I ran out of things to check. If anyone can thing of anything else, PLEASE let me know. 2009 Kawasaki Voyager, non ABS.

[biggersm]

I am a simple man (and a big Forest Gump fan). I'm going to try and simplify what Voyager said if you don't have time to click on the links. BTW - I've heard of the welded handlebar motorcycle that was pronounced unrideable; glad I didn't have to test it.

Here is my Forest Gump rendition of Handlebar 101:

Push right, go right

Push left, go left

Pretty simple stuff!

Try it some time at freeway speed. without moving your body (i.e. leaning) at all just push on a handlebar grip and see where you go.

Regardless you are in fact moving the handlebars (even by just a little) and moving the bearings out of their potential races.

Simple, me says, yes

[Voyager]

I am a simple man (and a big Forest Gump fan). I'm going to try and simplify what Voyager said if you don't have time to click on the links. BTW - I've heard of the welded handlebar motorcycle that was pronounced unrideable; glad I didn't have to test it.

Here is my Forest Gump rendition of Handlebar 101:

Push right, go right

Push left, go left

Pretty simple stuff!

Try it some time at freeway speed. without moving your body (i.e. leaning) at all just push on a handlebar grip and see where you go.

Regardless you are in fact moving the handlebars (even by just a little) and moving the bearings out of their potential races.

Simple, me says, yes

By George, I think he's got it!

[TheAudiDoc]

greased the steering bearings saturday....took an hour after i had the bike on the lift and all my tools ready to go....pics to come