Rev Matching for Downshifts

[Sidehopper]

Good evening all, I'm a new Voyager XII owner (1994, 29k on the odometer). She's in beautiful shape, and I want to keep her that way. I rode her about an hour and a half home with my wife following in our Jeep, and found the engine to feel a lot like a car, especially when downshifting and braking.

The engine/transmission seem like Kawasaki tuned them to not need to utilize throttle blips on downshifting. The engine doesn't seem to gain RPM quickly enough. Is this true, or is it just me not knowing my bike well enough yet? Will I cause damage if I don't blip the throttle, but instead let the clutch out slowly after a downshift? That sounds like something my Dad would say might burn up the clutch

Currently, she's parked on her center stand until I get the oil/oil filter changed a couple of times. I'm planning to use a method I found on the forum, where you put your 3 quarts 22 ounces of oil in, plus 6 ounces of Seafoam, then idle until everything comes up to temperature and drain it all out. Fresh oil and filter in afterwards, of course. Previous owner put about 500 miles on the oil change, but then the bike sat for about 2-3 years. They did put the progressive springs in the front forks, and possibly the rears(I may be misremembering), but they put a set of D404 tires on so there is some occasional wobble. I learned not to use the front brake if I was still turning slightly into a parking spot, the 404 seemed to flex the sidewalls out and I got to test the crash bars - they made getting the bike upright again a lot easier.

Looking forward to going on cruises with my brother, and camping excursions with my best friend. I don't think my wife will ever climb on the back seat, but if I can someday convince her we could do some moto camping - the XII seems like the perfect bike for it.

I also found some AVA roster books in the trunk, dated 2010 and 2011. The bike came from Villisca, Iowa, and was bought at Hornung Cycle in Hubbard, Iowa. Maybe a previous owner was active on the forums? Looking forward to getting to know you all!

[SgtSlag]

Welcome aboard the good ship, AVA! Sounds like you got a barn find bike: 29k miles? She is barely broken in!

Regarding the clutch question, I don't blip my throttle. The bike shifts nicely, on its own, without special efforts on my part. I did, however, replace the clutch at around 60k miles? My mechanic installed heavy duty springs, which makes it harder to pull in, but it should last much longer before the springs weaken, and fail. Don't know if blipping the throttle will prolong the life of the plates, or not. Sorry.

I might be the one who posted on the SeaFoam warm-up, then flush, technique you described. I used it on my 1979 Honda, back in the 2007 era. Your 1994 has only seen modern API oils (SK+?), so the risk of carbon build-up is minute. My Honda came from the factory with API SF oil in it, and Honda designed that engine to run at the ragged thermal edge: 250 F normal running temperature for the oil (from oil temp. gauge I installed), and the thermal breakdown of SF oils was... You guessed it, 250 F! After five minutes of idling, running through all five gears, letting the wheel spin, on the center stand, that oil turned from medium caramel color, to coal black! Repeated the SeaFoam flush, three years later, and it never changed color, even after riding it for 300 miles with the SeaFoam in it.

I strongly recommend changing all of the fluids: oil, fork oil (see below), and coolant (flush/fill, is best; all modern coolants are made for aluminum blocks -- all are safe to use). Check to see if you still have the OEM (oil-filled) rear shocks: you can change out the oil, or you can replace them with Progressive shocks. If you have Progressive shocks onboard, they are sealed, nothing to change.

For Fork Oil, you can buy whatever weight/viscosity you desire (5-15 Weight?), at $15+/quart. Or, you can buy Dexron ATF VI (below VI is conventional, while VI is full synthetic -- lasts twice as long!), for <$10/quart. The Dexron ATF is 8 Weight oil, middle of the road for response/feel. In the 70's to 80's, many of the bike companies used Dexron ATF: available everywhere, inexpensive, and middle of the scale for Weight/responsive feel in handling. I try to change mine every two years for conventional, but I hope to upgrade to Dexron VI, this time around, so I can go for four years, instead of two...

If you want a great engine oil, for minimal money, get some Shell Rotella T6, but make certain you get the correct viscosity: 15W-40, not the 5W-40. It comes in a blue bottle, available everywhere motor oil is sold. It is JASO M/MA rated for motorcycle use, in spite of being a diesel oil. It is full synthetic, as well. Otherwise, oil is cheap, buy what you like, and change it properly.

That's enough information overload for you. I'll let you breathe for a while, before I dump more info on you. LOL! Again, welcome to the family!
Cheers!

[Nails]

Check out the "new owners" Stickie on this forum, about an inch above this thread. Especially re. fluids, D404, "occasional wobble", &etc.

I don't really know what you mean about "like a car", but you might be short-shifting. At just 2K RPM you don't need much throttle blip. Blasting out of a curve at 3-4K, you do.

You might not need to get all that fussy with the oil and Seafoam. If it drains out clean, you might just put in fresh oil/filter then quit screwing around in the garage and go ride.

I just got back (like 8 hours ago) from a camping trip -- except I only ended up spending one night in the tent. Upcoming ride report will explain.

[KPAX]

I have owned dozens of bikes over the past 30 years. My Kawasaki Voyager Xii is without a doubt the slowest revving moving motor I have ever owned - it does not like to blip/rev match during down shifts. You would think a 1.2 liter 4 cylinder should pick up revs just fine, well...nope, not this one. I think it might have something to do with the twin countershafts; they increase the reciprocating mass.

As a result, I just down shift and let the synchro's do the work, it is just a fact of life with this motor.

Now, just imagine if Harley's couldn't blip their throttles, what would they do at stop lights?

[Wormys_Dad]

Nice looking machine! These are a little bit different than others I have had. Handle pretty good, pretty nimble for a touring bike. As far as the transmission, it didn't take long to get used to it. Definitely change fluids and give it a good once over. Then just ride the heck out of it. These are a hidden gem in the motorcycle world. Enjoy the ride!


Stay safe.

[cushman eagle]

Welcome,Sidehopper,to the AVA site of our wonderful family of riders
As you probebly know,this site offers plenty of free advice,just for the asking.
You have a great looking bike there,and should enjoy it more as you ride it.

[Sidehopper]

Welcome aboard the good ship, AVA! Sounds like you got a barn find bike: 29k miles? She is barely broken in!

Regarding the clutch question, I don't blip my throttle. The bike shifts nicely, on its own, without special efforts on my part. I did, however, replace the clutch at around 60k miles? My mechanic installed heavy duty springs, which makes it harder to pull in, but it should last much longer before the springs weaken, and fail. Don't know if blipping the throttle will prolong the life of the plates, or not. Sorry.

I might be the one who posted on the SeaFoam warm-up, then flush, technique you described. I used it on my 1979 Honda, back in the 2007 era. Your 1994 has only seen modern API oils (SK+?), so the risk of carbon build-up is minute. My Honda came from the factory with API SF oil in it, and Honda designed that engine to run at the ragged thermal edge: 250 F normal running temperature for the oil (from oil temp. gauge I installed), and the thermal breakdown of SF oils was... You guessed it, 250 F! After five minutes of idling, running through all five gears, letting the wheel spin, on the center stand, that oil turned from medium caramel color, to coal black! Repeated the SeaFoam flush, three years later, and it never changed color, even after riding it for 300 miles with the SeaFoam in it.

Looking forward to running the clock up myself! Yes, that's the Seafoam post I saw, and the low mileage is one reason I was thinking about treating the oil. I'm not exactly sure what sort of oil was left in it if it sat for an extended period so I didn't know if it would break down into sludge without the engine running. Thanks for the info about how you shift! Side note - I think I read somewhere that Japanese oil was all whale based for a long time so it had different properties, and the bikes were designed around whale oils in general. I wonder if that might be why they let that oil run so hot, if it worked fine on the oil they used? A major oversight, to be sure!

Check out the "new owners" Stickie on this forum, about an inch above this thread. Especially re. fluids, D404, "occasional wobble", &etc.

I don't really know what you mean about "like a car", but you might be short-shifting. At just 2K RPM you don't need much throttle blip. Blasting out of a curve at 3-4K, you do.

You might not need to get all that fussy with the oil and Seafoam. If it drains out clean, you might just put in fresh oil/filter then quit screwing around in the garage and go ride.

I just got back (like 8 hours ago) from a camping trip -- except I only ended up spending one night in the tent. Upcoming ride report will explain.

Thanks for the relevant info in the stickies - when I say "like a car" I kind of mean the size and balance of the engine means it feels incredibly smooth when downshifting and braking. All the manual cars I've driven smoothly rev up if I downshift to engine brake, but smaller engines seem to do a lot better if you use the throttle to match RPM rather than letting the clutch bring the RPM up. By short shifting, do you mean downshifting too early? I am still learning which speed each gear wants during downshifting, so I could be shifting a bit early and engine braking a little harder than I need to. It's never "lock the rear wheel" amounts of engine braking . And I do like the idea of just riding my bike - after coming from a previous basket case with a bad starter clutch, I need a lot of "go ride" to catch up! Nothing quite like the way a camping trip can go wrong, hope you were out of the tent for a good reason.

I have owned dozens of bikes over the past 30 years. My Kawasaki Voyager Xii is without a doubt the slowest revving moving motor I have ever owned - it does not like to blip/rev match during down shifts. You would think a 1.2 liter 4 cylinder should pick up revs just fine, well...nope, not this one. I think it might have something to do with the twin countershafts; they increase the reciprocating mass.

As a result, I just down shift and let the synchro's do the work, it is just a fact of life with this motor.

Now, just imagine if Harley's couldn't blip their throttles, what would they do at stop lights?

I am glad to read this because that's pretty much what it felt like to me. I bet we trade faster rev speed for a good deal of torque, though, so I'm fine with it. It also seems to mean the bike is smooth as silk through the gears. We'd probably see a lot more ape hanger bars - if loud pipes can't save lives, then more visibility should do the trick!

Nice looking machine! These are a little bit different than others I have had. Handle pretty good, pretty nimble for a touring bike. As far as the transmission, it didn't take long to get used to it. Definitely change fluids and give it a good once over. Then just ride the heck out of it. These are a hidden gem in the motorcycle world. Enjoy the ride!


Stay safe.

I appreciate the kind words! My 5 year old son designated the right saddlebag pocket the "leaf pocket" so anytime I ride it somewhere new, I'll be bringing back new leaves to show him. That means I need to go to a lot of new places - the perfect excuse

Welcome,Sidehopper,to the AVA site of our wonderful family of riders
As you probebly know,this site offers plenty of free advice,just for the asking.
You have a great looking bike there,and should enjoy it more as you ride it.

Thank you, and I appreciate all the advice! I've got a lot to learn about the XII so I can keep it on the road, and this seems like the perfect place to call home no matter where the bike is parked

[Nails]

By short shifting, do you mean downshifting too early?.

No, I'm talking about up-shifting "too" early. This torquey motor tolerates low RPMs, which is great when in touring mode. But the bike also likes to romp. It works fine for me to down-shift near the apex, with a throttle blip to avoid upsetting the chassis, and then blasting out of the curve. Still just in the 4-6K RPM zone, but more than just poking around the curve. The suspension can feel surprisingly athletic. YMMV

[Sidehopper]

No, I'm talking about up-shifting "too" early. This torquey motor tolerates low RPMs, which is great when in touring mode. But the bike also likes to romp. It works fine for me to down-shift near the apex, with a throttle blip to avoid upsetting the chassis, and then blasting out of the curve. Still just in the 4-6K RPM zone, but more than just poking around the curve. The suspension can feel surprisingly athletic. YMMV

I think I see what you are saying - if I'm in too high of a gear for a corner, there will be a larger RPM change if I need to downshift than if I'm in a lower gear, so cruising into a corner in 4th would offer an easier downshift than cruising into the same corner at the same speed in 5th. Is that what you mean?

I'm mostly asking about straight line braking though, like coming to a stop sign or taking a slow left turn after shifting down from highway speeds. The bike offers some really strong engine braking during such a stop, and since the bike is slowing there is a large RPM jump when downshifting from 3rd to 2nd. Smaller, faster revving engines let you pull the clutch, downshift, blip the throttle, and then release the clutch without much feathering, whereas the XII seems to work best with a slower clutch release and no throttle blip so the engine gradually matches the RPM of the transmission.

Since it feels different than the advice given to most riders on most bikes, I wanted to make sure I wasn't engine braking too much or wearing the clutch excessively during a stop by riding this way. Stopping a bad habit is always easier and cheaper than replacing parts broken by bad habits

[Nails]

Smaller, faster revving engines let you pull the clutch, downshift, blip the throttle, and then release the clutch without much feathering, whereas the XII seems to work best with a slower clutch release and no throttle blip so the engine gradually matches the RPM of the transmission.

Apologies for getting sucked into down-shifting to get more power, such as to accelerate out of a corner or pass uphill.

For slowing down: It's entirely possible to blip the throttle and down-shift while pulling the front brake, whether high or low RPMs. I'd have to suggest that if down-shifting to engine brake is problematic, just use the brakes. But I think you'll get used to it.

[Sidehopper]

Apologies for getting sucked into down-shifting to get more power, such as to accelerate out of a corner or pass uphill.

For slowing down: It's entirely possible to blip the throttle and down-shift while pulling the front brake, whether high or low RPMs. I'd have to suggest that if down-shifting to engine brake is problematic, just use the brakes. But I think you'll get used to it.

No worries Nails, reading over my initial post I didn't mention that I was asking about straight line braking specifically so that's my mistake. Sorry about that!

Maybe I'm just expecting the engine to rev faster than it does, so I would need to give it a little more time for the blip than I have been. I don't think I'm being too aggressive with engine braking, so I'm not too worried about causing strain in the short term. I'm sure I just need to get some more seat time to get used to the engine and how it wants to be ridden. I'm doing my first oil change on the XII today after work so if all goes well I'll be taking a nice evening cruise.

Thanks for the advice!

[Sidehopper]

But I think you'll get used to it.

I went on a short ride after changing the oil (I made a marked oil change pitcher as well) and it started raining right as I was pulling out of town. Basically just long enough that I can say I got rained on. Put my first dose of Seafoam in the tank before I went and she purred like a kitten.

Most importantly - I was able to perform ONE throttle blip downshift. I'll get the muscle memory eventually and then it will be cake. These bikes are really something special :)

[GrandpaDenny]

Since it feels different than the advice given to most riders on most bikes, I wanted to make sure I wasn't engine braking too much or wearing the clutch excessively during a stop by riding this way. Stopping a bad habit is always easier and cheaper than replacing parts broken by bad habits

Nah, you're not going to wear the clutch out. You're fine. These bikes have plenty of brakes, so you can just downshift without using engine braking if you like. Do bear in mind that they don't have the low-end torque of a V-twin, so you will need to downshift in case you need to apply power suddenly, or if the light changes green. No low-end torque, but wind them up a bit and they'll leave most bikes well behind.

[SgtSlag]

Make certain to use the rear brake, in nearly all braking situations (exceptions occur, but rarely; trail braking is another thing entirely). Many cyclists rely solely upon the front brake (a few only use the rear -- Yikes!). As they teach in the Basic Rider Course, 70% braking power comes from the front, 30% comes from the rear. I want all of the braking power I can get! What they fail to teach you is that if you lead with the rear brake, by just a fraction of a second, you can avoid the typical front-end dive, when braking. More importantly, it stabilizes the suspension during braking, even panic braking. It makes a world of difference, especially 2-up!

Read about it in one of several rider books I've read in the past. Wish I could remember which one, to give proper credit. Changed my riding, dramatically: I ride 2-up, 98% of the time, and it helps keep my Sweetheart from slamming into me, high up, in emergent situations. She still slides forward, but not against my shoulders so much -- helps me to control the bike better as I don't need to stiff arm the bars as much. Every little bit helps.

I recommend the Ride Like A Pro videos, by Jerry Palladino. He teaches how to keep the engine idling higher, while dragging the rear brake, to make slow U-turns (more to it than just that). Jerry is a former motorcycle cop. His videos are currently unavailable on Amazon, but you can try looking elsewhere for them. Highly recommended. Cheers!

[GrandpaDenny]

...helps me to control the bike better as I don't need to stiff arm the bars as much. Every little bit helps.

A very good habit to get into is squeezing your knees against the false tank (or tank on non-VXIIs) when braking, especially when emergency braking. Doing it all the time makes it become automatic whenever braking. This relieves the need to "stiff-arm" the bars, and allows for maneuverability if needed. Having your passenger squeeze their knees against you when braking works the same way, and prevents them from pushing you forward.